-Diablo's Journal, 05 Jun 18

@toumina, are you more of an expert then? I guess reading about and trying all variations of macros since 2000 isn't enough to qualify me as more than someone who just learned a thing. I'd say all of the reading plus the fact that I've reached my goal would make me more knowledgeable than you. Until there are metabolic ward studies and other actual science that disprove what I follow, I'll keep following my beginner algebra, lol. Please enlighten me, I want your results...:D 

Very interesting - I see no fat japanese people except for those eating fast food like here - Rice does fill me up but I always eat too much and feel uncomfortable - It is a good point you make and you back it up - Great Post - Thanks for sharing 

I don’t understand why everyone keeps arguing about this stuff. Everyone is different and every body needs different things. Is that so hard to accept? A great example is that I have a family member who is diabetic and other health issues. She would do wel ok LCHF but she also needs more protein. I myself can’t cut carbs. I’ve tried off and on for three months. Veggies do NOT keep me full. Neither does mostly protein. My body seems to need 80-120g or carbs a day. It varies by the day and my activity level as well. A friend cut fat and gained weight. She started Keto and I believe is down about 50 pound over the last few months. She loves veggies and healthy fats so this is great for her. Why not agree that all are different and if we don’t like a post we don’t have to go to the link ;). I think everyone would be happier if we agree to disagree.  

Cause we are different in our personal preferences and what we need to do to adhere to a deficit but that is where the differences end. If everyone on this site were put into a metabolic ward we would all loss fat on a low energy diet no matter the macro compostion or what we ate. Again, adherence is key and a ward would ensure it. Of course we don't have that option so we must find what works for us individually. Whether that be lchf or lfhc and everything in between. The reason I post things like this is because I still see so many people vilify carbs. Nooone blames the fat that is couple with the carbs to create some of the most tasty food. People like toumina want to make it seem like fat loss is calculus when it is just simple math. Maybe people like her have struggled for so long that they cannot believe it is that simple. Protein is the only thing that makes a difference as far as body composition is concerned. For overall health, yes, ensuring micronutrients and fiber are on point is important but I'm just talking fat loss. 

I saw this and immediately thought, "I wonder how many arguments were fought in the comments" lol. Diablo, I appreciate your insights and info just as I do Deadpool's.  

Diablo, I have an MS in Data Science, meaning I have a high understanding of scientific methodology and can quickly see when people are selecting, misinterpreting, or misrepresenting the data/results because of their confirmation bias. I've worked on a few studies with Phds in biology and biochemistry, but admittedly, my primary focus and expertise is more on sociological issues. Are you familiar with the experiment in which scientists drop a bowling ball and a feather within a vacuum and try to see which one falls faster? You can google it if you're not familiar with it, but it's very similar to the metabolic ward studies you like to cite. By studying something outside of real world conditions, we can learn a lot about how it actually works. In our vacuum experiment, we learn about how feathers utilize air resistance and surface area to stay aloft in spite of gravity. In metabolic ward studies, we learn about how the metabolism actually burns fuel in a strictly controlled environment. The vacuum experiment taught us that it was the variables encountered in real world conditions which greatly affect the velocity at which a feather falls. It did not teach us that since a feather can fall at the same velocity as a bowling ball, that all feathers should be falling like bowling balls in real world conditions. Likewise, metabolic ward studies should not be inferred to mean that all people should be losing weight like they do in metabolic wards while in real world conditions. It means that further study is needed to identify which variables are significant and how they work upon the metabolism. *This* is how science works. And anyone who claims that science has unequivocally answered *any* question is not a scientist. Good science creates more questions. And as an expert in my field, I will tell you that no, self study along a confirmation bias, no matter for how many years, does not make a person an expert.  

I'm sorry but every single time I see ward-----I think Wally and the Beaver....okay, go back to your regular programming...... 

Once again, it's simple math. Comparing a feather to a bowling ball as an analogy to two different people is really reaching. Metabolic Ward's prove it comes down to CICO. People failing outside of a ward only shows how terrible people are at adhering. People fail at estimating their energy output/input. Fail to adhere on the weekends etc. 

Why don't you petition the youtube gurus to conduct their own metabolic ward studies? They are as exact as you can get. Do you believe that the 31 studies that show that when protein and calories are equated fat loss is the same are all bought out by big sugar? Can you link me to any that show keto is superior for fat loss when calories and protein are equal? You can't link them here but you can send me a private message or share this wonderful news in your journal. 

Okay, let's try this again. The bowling ball and feather analogy isn't meant to represent two different people. It's to represent that the law of gravity, even though it is scientifically proven "simple math", doesn't guarantee the same results in both a strictly controlled environment absent of other variables and a normal, everyday environment. This illustrates how your metabolic ward studies (which I don't believe were bought out by big sugar or are incorrect) cannot be inferred to mean that replicating those results in an uncontrolled environment is guaranteed and that failure to do so means there was something wrong with the subject. It's like saying the feather falls slowly in real world conditions because there is something wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with the feather. It's doing exactly what it was made to do. It's the same with the human body, we just haven't identified all the significant variables that are present in our uncontrolled environment yet. Also, if you're going to shit on a person's results as proof they don't know what they're talking about, you may want to make sure you know what approach they're using. I'm not a keto or LCHF practitioner. I actually practice CICO because it's simple and easy for me. I'm calling you out because I can't stand bad representations of science where I see them. 

So a breeze can interfere with the feather falling the same way a friend can sidetrack someone's diet by inviting them to lunch. Not sure what you want from me, or what else you're arguing. It's the most accurate method we have, Toumina. I know and most others already know it's hard to get results when we have free will. You need determination, focus, etc. 

And I'm not disputing that determination and focus are necessary for success in any thing. I'm just trying to express that there is still much we don't know about metabolism and how environmental variables affect it. We know that something is going wrong in our environment, leading to an epidemic of obesity, but we also know that it's not simply a failure of discipline on the part of the person (like how the failure to fall at the same rate of the bowling ball wasn't the fault of the feather). We can prove certain aspects of it. Yes, we understand the very basics of it, but just because that's all we can prove right now doesn't mean that's all there is. Heck, even with all the years and study on gravity, we can measure it but we still don't even know exactly how or why it works! Just... have an open mind. You may be surprised at what gets in there. I gotta jet for tonight, but I'll put together a post tomorrow with some more links of what we do and don't know, and especially how results get taken out of context and used to imply conclusions that haven't actually been supported. 

It's the ease of 1st world living, highly palatable energy dense foods(processed) and people not caring enough about their health. There may be more to it just like you say there is still more science to be revealed in the future but those are the basics. I like basics. You can wait for the science and major in the minors or work with what we currently have available. 😊 

I've tried to explain to the OP that the results of metabolic ward studies can't be generalized, but I'm pretty sure that is speaking out of his depth of understanding. Here's some other observations about the validity of metabolic ward studies that I've made in the past; In order to get valid results you would have to take the same individual at the same weight for the same length of time (and at the same age, which is impossible) and compare the results of different diets. That has NOT been done, because it can't be done. So, comparing the weight I lost in one year, over 250 pounds, to the results of any of those studies proves conclusively that there actually IS a metabolic advantage, using the criteria set out in those studies. The metabolic ward studies so many science illiterate angry diet gurus love to cite begin with a flawed premise: Let's compare individuals. No, that's not going to give you anything but apples to oranges comparisons. You would have to compare the same individual's results at the same weight, same age, and for the same length of time to have any useful data. You think the experiment's designers don't know that? So basically, "keto is real, it just doesn't work. And if it does work, it doesn't work any better. And if it does work better, using the same criteria set out in the metabolic ward studies that prove it doesn't work better, than you're just being ironic." Here's where keto-bashers mess up; 1. You admit keto is real and even cite studies where keto is compared to other diet methods. 2. The studies you cite begin with a premise so flawed that all anyone has to do is report greater weight-loss on a ketogenic diet than any other diet and the metabolic ward studies (or any other sort of study) unravels. and 3. ketogenic diets are as different and unique as the people that are on them. Dr. Atkins wrote that everyone will do his diet differently. Atkins IS a ketogenic diet, one of the first that got popular and, if you're going by the old books, Diet Revolution or New Diet Revolution, still two of the most solid programs you can find. And because there are as many different keto diets as there are keto dieters, you can't generalize the results of an apples-to-oranges study to the rest of the population. Please don't science, you obviously can't.  

So there is no discussion to have if nothing is good enough. So keep thinking keto is magic and keep tooting your own horn. 

Do you know what is fed to livestock to fatten it up for the slaughterhouse? 

A lot of calories? Do you know what I eat and many other people also in much better shape than you also eat? A lot of carbs. You fail, once again. 

You're freaking hilarious, D3x... 4. Laugh about it Sometimes, you will know that what the arrogant person is saying is not true. Know it alls can actually be funny people because even in the face of opposing facts they have a very hard time letting go of their own belief. Sometimes laughing about the fallacies of an arrogant person can actually show them their own foolishness in a polite and fun way. Besides, laughing is a good way to defuse an arrogant person who might be a participant in an important and critical conversation, but who has a hard time seeing the viewpoints of others. 

Lol, the reach. Your arm must be sore. 

I'd say someone who thinks any diet can work is a lot more open minded than a keto zealot...